Tuesday, September 30, 2014

Expansive Poetics - 118 (Do It - Jeff Nightbyrd & Abbie Hoffman & Florence Becker Lennnon)



[Jeff Nightbyrd and Abbie Hoffman in Texas]


[to Jeff Nightbyrd] - What are you..  you're in town for an underground media convention?

Jeff Nightbyrd: We're going to have an alternative tv network in America.

AG: Uh-hmm

Jeff Nightbyrd:  (The) FCC has licensed low-power tv stations - KBDI and Video West and Public Interest Video in Washington put together a conference of leading experimental video people (who) came…

AG: Here in town (Boulder) or in Denver?

Jeff Nightbyrd: Here. Well, in Boulder and at KBDI. We get… probably some people saw it… two nights of live barbecue in the parking lot, and experimental video from around the country.. a party, Saturday night, and, we're working, right now, to put up some thirteen weeks up on the satellite, three hours, once a week. And it really came down to just that thing about..doing it!



AG: Yeah

Jeff Nightbyrd): I mean, there's all these academic reasons, and studying markets and whatever, and two people said, "Okay, we'll buy the time on the satellite…

AG: Yeah

Jeff Nightbyrd): …if you'll produce the programs". And we need $200,ooo…

AG: To produce programs?

Jeff Nightbyrd): ..and everybody announces "Okay, we're somehow going to do it". And we're running all over the country, starting two days ago, to put something on,



AG: (Timothy) Leary wants a revolution. So who doesn't. As long as it.. As Gregory (Corso) said, "The Beat group had the first bloodless revolution" (which was a revolution of the spirit) - or initiated, or started, or continued (it), if you can see - from Marsden Hartley - we just continued an old American tradition (which you can find with (Boulder poet) Florence Becker Lennon - did you hear her last night?- she was great!)

Jeff Nightbyrd: I heard it was..

AG: She was eighty - and she was great. Yeah. That last line of a thing was very particular - like Hartley (it sounded like Hartley). She was looking at a bunch of hardhats working next door to her house on Seventh Street here, and said, "Are these the men that are building the bomb to blow up the world, or are they only the men who are poisoning mothers' milk"?  It was a very particular poem, yeah. By "particular", I mean (as in) "minute particulars" [ in William Blake's phrase], specifics, specific instances. She had picked the specific instance in her backyard, in her own  range of her eighty-year-old life and written about it. As Hartley did.



[Audio for the above can be heard here, beginning at approximately thirty-six-and-a-half minutes in, and concluding at approximately thirty-nine minutes in]

Monday, September 29, 2014

Expansive Poetics - 117 (No Future - (Punk Statements))



Student: Do you think that (punk) new wave (music) has God or has respect…

AG: No, no, no, no. I think they've dispensed with the notion very wisely (though they may have dispensed with the heart also, unwisely)

Student:  Yeah, I think they have..

AG: But not really, because you hear a lot of great stuff from (the) new wave (bands). The Clash, certainly, are totally political, totally heart-felt, I would say. To have to exist in a tough world they might appear tough, but they're very very generous - totally. That was my experience of them, singing with them - total generosity and self-sacrifice for a spiritual cause, for a political-spiritual cause.

Student: But Allen, don't you think that adolescence (in) every culture is a testing of yourself to discover yourself. And the anger...

AG: Yeah

Student: …the anger in punk is that most of these kids grew up in suburban environments that are just incredibly dead, more..

AG [pointing to the class]: All these kids did too.

Student: Well, I don't..

AG: Not that there's so many kids here.. 

Student: It's also a mistake to speak of it in such a monolithic way. The punk movement in England was very very working-class.

AG: Yeah, yeah.

Student: Yeah. So it was very different to what happened in the States.

AG: Yeah.. we're just talking about what we were thinking about here about the American punk.

Student: But even in terms of that..

AG: Yeah

Student: ..I think there's still a breadth of..(a spectrum..)

AG: Yeah, there's a whole bunch of punks that are just following the five-and-ten-cents-store fashion at this point. It's like what they see in the

Student: How about the lyrics (of) like Costello (I think that's his name)

AG: Elvis Costello

Student: His song, "There's no future"  (that's (part of) the lyrics of it)

AG: Those are the change…  the Sex Pistols

Student: The Sex Pistols

AG: "No future for you, no future for me"

Student: Yeah

AG: "No future for me, no future for you". Well, you know.. but I dug that, as being the frankest political statement of the decade. That the middle-class and military was preaching that we have a future if we trust them and if we trust the American Way, and if we trust the normal middle-class conspicuous consumption consumer society. And (that) if you go through school and behave and do it right, and don't interrupt, and don't get up on the stage and take others' place, you'll be alright, and you can get a job later on, and be whatever it is, and (get) insurance. And, particularly in England, where the Sex Pistols came  out, with total unemployment for blacks (well, sixty percent unemployment for blacks, and thirty-five percent unemployment for white kids), and, actually (in) England, as (William) Burroughs (had) described (it), "a fish caught in a shrinking pond", it was an actual statement of fact. And only until the English recognize that will they ever be able to have any kind of future, until they can hit bottom mentally and recognize where they're at.
So I thought it was a useful social statement, though likely to be misinterpreted (like Jerry Rubin's "Kill your parents" - which was actually an elevated thought, but misunderstood a little, by him even) - he said (he said himself that he thought that was a mistake, because he didn't understand the effect). 

Student: Yeah.. I'd just.. with the whole new wave/punk movement, I would just like to see more vision

Student (CC): Well I'm not sure if there is any vision.

AG: Well, you've got to write some new wave lyrics. That's what I'm doing. I'm writing new wave lyrics to lay on a trip - that visionary trip - to do something about it.

Student:  (The music that I) hear in my head is more (interesting)

AG: Don't just sit there, do something about it!

Student: Yeah, it's more futuristic.

AG: You and (CC) ought to form a rock 'n roll band, dance in front of it. Yes? (sorry, I interrupted you).

Student: No, that's all

AG: Do it! But you can't do it by just talking about it. You got to do it. That's basically what I object to in your method - you talk about it, but you don't do it. And if you do it, then you have to formulate exactly what there is to do, and what you can do and what you can't do,  and what you can do with other people and what you can do without other people, and then you form a community of doing it. The process of doing it forms the community itself. That was the theory of the 'Sixties - that in the organization of doing it, you find affinities and people you can work with and make friends with and see every couple of years.. 

[Audio for the above can be heard here, starting at approximately thirty-two-and-a-half minutes in and concluding at approximately thirty-six-and-a-half minutes in] 

Sunday, September 28, 2014

William Burroughs at Naropa 1982 (Q & A - part two)


... in media res.. William Burroughs is talking about Joseph Conrad

WSB:  ….oh he's a very great writer, my god!  He's a great creator of character. You can see the characters - Elmer, Lingard... Not interesting people, for the most part, at all, but, like, neither is (are) (Jean) Genet's characters interesting in themselves but he manages a 
transmutation there that makes a really dull person like Willems in An Outcast of the
Islands interesting -Lingard, they're all dull people

Q: Do you see much of Genet at all?

WSB: No he's very hard to find, he… I know a very good friend of his, Brion Gysin, who
lives in Paris, he hasn't seen him in years, but they spent a lot of time together in Tangiers at one point, yes.

Q: Have you any comment on the influence of Henry Miller's work on Kerouac ('s and 
your own) prose ?

WSB: Very little on mine. I think some on Kerouac's, yes, sort of the outpour(ing), the
immediate experience, emphasis on the immediate experience, yes.

Q: By the early '70s, you were writing columns for Crawdaddy magazines - "Time of the 
Assassins" ,the Jimmy Page interview. What of this experience did you enjoy, did you like 
that association….?

WSB: Well, no, I don't do much going out, socializing and that sort of thing, very little
indeed, so it shouldn't be assumed that it's at all typical for me to...

Q: Well what was it like to have a monthly installment, monthly place, where you can place
whatever you want...

WSB: Well, it gets to be hard work, you see. You got to do it every month. So you don't.. 
maybe you don't get an idea every month, but you've got to make an idea. I.. Doing a regular column. I don't know how anybody could do a daily column, that would really be murder, but even a.. say you've got a weekly column, you've only finished one, you have to start thinking about the next one (unless you got something all blocked out).

Q:  (But you get paid to be a writer, so you shouldn't mind)

WSB: Well, that's what my whole book is about so I would almost say the same thing, that I don't have time to explain. It's like - I gave the comparison of creatures that live in water,
and they can look up out of the water and see land, but they can't really imagine what it 
would be like, I mean really realize, what it would be like, to live there. There are new fears up there. You see, the fear of falling means nothing to a fish, but it'll mean something as 
soon as he gets a form where he can get up out onto land. But, actually, the air-breathing 
potential has to be there first before the water-creature can come up onto land. There were lung fish and various fish that developed rudimentary lungs (that) came up onto the land, 
but there was no way that one fish could have told another what it's going to be like when 
he gets out of the water. Nor can I say what it will be like when we get out of time (and) into space, except to say that, obviously, our link with space is dreams. We now know that 
dreaming is a biological necessity and that if people don't dream (or) are prevented from 
dreaming, they will die eventually, (just as they would die from loss of sleep). So it serves, 
obviously, a very deep and very necessary biologic function. And my interpretation is that  dreams are our link with space, with our biological and spiritual destiny in space, which we may or may not realize. Yes?

[Audience-member, indecipherable, gives a rambling observation - WSB: I can't understand you! - she continues - WSB: Well, we take one at a time. WSB continues - on seriality..]

WSB: Well, there's something called "The Serial Universe" by (J.W.) Dunne, you see, where he has.. every..every universe, every person is observed by an observer who's observed by 
an observer, and so on (into) infinity. Yes, yes, I know something about what he's talking 
about. 
















Q (I like crawdads, the more I'm hearing)

WSB: Like what?

Q (The crawdads)

WSB: Man, I was brought up with crawdads,  came from St Louis, and they're no novelty, man, they're.. I think they have a terrific range. I've hardly been any place where there were no crawdads - Yep..

Q: What did you think of.. [audio, regrettably inaudible here]

WSB: Well, I thought.. I did some editing on it. I thought it was, yes, a reasonable piece of 
work, yes, I enjoyed it..

Q: Yeah, I had a dream on meeting you and I wrote  a short piece and I was wondering if I might share that..

WSB: What's the dream?

Q: [Audience-member reads out a short prose piece - On meeting you - "...I read you loud 
and clear. You are medicine and exactly right..." "Daydream on Meeting William Seward 
Burroughs"]  

WSB: You mean that I said all that in a dream? - huh? 

Q: No!

WSB: That would have been something!  I always found dreams, on occasion, tend to be 
brief and cryptic. Oh..well.. no, that's something, but what was the dream? you said 
something about a dream?

Q: Just a dream, a dream on meeting you.

WSB: Oh.

Q: I had this… picture of it (that)  I saw from your work.

WSB: Yeah, it was an association?

Q: Right.

WSB: I understand, yeah.  wait a minute..one over here..yes?

Q: I read somewhere recently that you had been somewhat influenced by Julian Jaynes'

WSB: I thought he had a very interesting thesis, but the end of it, he just doesn't do 
anything with it at all. He was talking to a.. telepathy.. Somebody talking in somebody 
else's mind (that's how he said speech got started -  by someone, someone's voice.. 
someone else's voice in someone else's brain). Well, then he turns around and repudiates
the whole idea of telepathy. So it sounded like he was sort of recanting to the 
establishment, the educational establishment, under pressure and sort of winding up by
denying everything that he'd said, really. But the thesis itself was quite interesting - the
idea that people.. (and I do get a feeling from reading the Odyssey and the Iliad and all 
that) that they didn't have this "I' that we have at all. It would never occur to them to 
wonder what they should do, or whether this was right or this was wrong, quite a different consciousness really. Yes?














Q: I don't know if this is fact or fiction but I recall reading accounts that Jack (Kerouac) would write something, sort of wondering specifically what you would think of it, and would..bring you something that he wrote and say,"Well, here, read this" and your only comment was "Ah, yes", and that you didn't comment, and I was wondering did you...

WSB: He didn't.. No, he didn't tend to bring very much to me. I was.. Sometimes I'd ask to 
see something . Like when he was in Mexico, he'd spent a lot of his time sitting around, just writing away in a notebook. He did a lot of oral.. I mean a lot of written..written, 
hand-written material, and he was also very.. very fast on the typewriter.. and then I'd ask 
him sometimes, well, what he was writing, and then he would show me.. He showed me 
some of the Mexico City stuff (Mexico City Blues) when he was there.  But it was nothing that happened every day. You see, we didn't see that much of each other over a long.. there were long periods when we didn't see each other at all, when I really moved out of the (United) States and he stayed where he was. He came over to visit in 1957 to Tangiers, rather briefly. So.. and after that, I didn't see him.. I only saw him once between 1957 and his death in 1969.  

Q: Did he offer you any suggestions while he was typing up the manuscript for Naked Lunch?

WSB: He didn't do all that much typing on it. Allen.. yeah.. no, he did a fair amount, Allen 
and Jack both did a lot of typing, and Alan Ansen. No, he didn't, he didn't, he didn't at all. He wasn't.. he didn't tend to give to people suggestions on writing.

Q: Ezra Pound suggested that the biological, the biochemical make-up of the brain is 
similar to the sperm. Would you have a comment on that?

WSB: I never thought of such a thing ... I don't know.. Maybe!.. (It's just) I haven't really 
considered  it. I don't think scientifically it's very similar. Is it? Not that I'm a biologist, god knows, but I.. I don't see that there would be any immediate similarity, biologic(ally) or 
chemically. - Let's see, yes?

Q: How would you rate your son's book?

WSB: Which one?

Q: Well I read Speed and..

WSB: Well, yeah, Speed is certainly.. Lots of people come to me and say that it says more
to them than anything I wrote, he seemed to catch a certain feelng in the 'Sixties and 
transcribe it with great accuracy and sincerity. So, I think they're very good books indeed, 
and I'm glad to say in no way influenced by me, they don't sound like..like he even read what I wrote, which is good, very good.

Q: (Are the two of you still in contact?)

WSB: Pardon?

Q: (Are the two of you still in contact?)

WSB: He's dead, my dear - didn't you know that?  Yeah, he died about two years ago
[Editorial note - "Billy" Burroughs  (William Burroughs Jr.) died of liver failure, aged 33, 
on March 3, 1981]














Q: ..I remember the opening of the On The Road book..

WSB: Yes

Q:  .. and I was curious if you felt some sort of distinction between drinking and..

WSB: I think he's.. No, I think he's drawing an artificial line there, where none exists. There may be sort of a spectrum but I don't think there's any clear differential line to be drawn 
there  -  (I've) got to get somebody else (in) here, yes?

Q: The gentleman mentioned Ezra Pound before...

WSB: What?

Q: Ezra Pound

WSB: Ezra Pound, yeah

Q: What do you think of him? Have you read him at all? What do you think of the Cantos? Do you think he's a major influence on the writing of modern poetry?

WSB: Err..well, I'm not really competent to say. I have not read The Cantos. I found them 
rather hard going. I found his… the fact that..  (some of the) theories (that) were expressed there..were deplorable.. all this .."technocracy", it was called, I believe (which was, to my 
mind, a lot of nonsense). And he was a cranky person. But I couldn't really assess him as a 
poet at all..but..well, yes, there are some good phrases in there…I remember Alan Ansen 
used to read sections, like one called "Pull down thy vanity" [from "Canto LXXI", -"Pull down thy vanity, it is not man/ Made courage, or made order, or made grace,/ Pull down thy vanity, I say pull down"] which was sort of first-rate, but..I don't read a great deal of 
modern poetry, I just never really read Pound, the Cantos.

















Q:What do you think of Bukowski as a writer?

WSB: Who?

Q: Bukowski. Charles Bukowski

WSB: I don't… he's good. I don't know it very well. I really..I really would be.. I couldn't 
pass an opinion at all.

Q: Does (the Marquis) De Sade have much influence on you?

WSB: No. Not at all, I have.. I don't find it so interesting really. I can see that it's more
interesting as a sociological document or at least to me it's more interesting as a 
sociological document than it is something that I actually enjoy reading, or find fulfilling.

Q: Have you ever read The Sound and the Fury  by William Faulkner

WSB: Yes

Q: What did you think of it?

WSB: It's been a year since I read it. It seemed to me a very..very good book and the 
experimentation there was sort of… consciousness excerpts I thought were very well done. It was good. I don't know if it would re-read well.

Q: At one point in time Korzybski and Spengler definitely had a lot of influence on you, 
Kerouac and Ginsberg. Do you think these people are still very relevant…to the young 
people

WSB: Which was the first one?

Q: Korzybski?

WSB: I don't know, I don't know..oh Korzybski! -  Korzybski is very important to anyone of any age because that's the whole meaning of meaning  - the meaninglessness of abstract 
words - the either/or propositions, that are nothing but either true or false, which he says
 is one of the great errors of Western thought, which I fully agree with, "It's either 
hereditary or… - both - and - "either this (or that) - It's not the way the nervous system 
works, it's not the way the physical universe works, and abstract words like "Justice",
"Communism","Democracy", you see, you have as many meanings for these words as 
people that use them - they all mean different things, you can never arrive at an agreement because they're not talking about the same thing. He is very important. I think Spengler is much less important. Spengler is interesting because, since he has a theory, he collects a lot of disparate historical facts that you wouldn't find anywhere else and brings them in to his  cyclical theory of history, and I think you'd learn, I think a young person would learn, quite a lot by reading Spengler, whether he subscribes to his - ( I don't particularly, I don't think it's a very valid concept) - to his cyclical view of history, (but the book would still have value). But Korzybski, yeah, I think everyone should be taught him at high-school, because all these purely verbal arguments, that are quite unnecessary and time-wasting.. 

















Q: What's the name of one of Korzybski  books?

WSB: Well, he wrote a great (deal). He wrote a book called Science and Sanity. Well, he was a mathematician among other things and it's very very long, there's a long mathematical section in it - and I think the non-Aristotelian society which he founded islocated somewhere in Connecticut [The Institute of General Semantics, at one time based in Lakeville, Connecticut, is now based in Forest Hills, New York]  - (they have the details over at the bookstore because I ordered this condensation of Science and Sanity for one of my classes and they sort of cooked the thing down into a reasonable book..but it can be obtained, and it's very much worth reading just for the simple.. He used to start his talk by rapping something. He'd say, "Whatever this may be, it's not a table - it's not the word, "table", it's not the label.  Yes?

Q: Has Brion Gysin written anything (in recent times)?
  
WSB: Yes, let's see, he's written… he wrote an article on Jones, on, wait a minute,
Brian Jones. He's written various articles on Jojouka. He is currently working on a book 
called The Bardo Hotel. I think he's written various articles for photography and painting magazines, I don't have the full list, but, yes, he's been quite active in writing since then

Q:  Also there's The Third Mind

WSB:  Yes, that one particularly. And now, let's see, I think his first one, which was To 
Master, a Long Goodnight, about slavery in Canada, was..is out of print. Any more 
questions here?

Q: I've been reading Desolation Angels. (Jack) Kerouac was talking about when he was 
typing up that whole bunch of nightmares, and I noticed, in reading a couple of your books, (I started reading very heavily).. and I'd spoken to another writer who told me he gets stuck reading your works because he was having so many nightmares, and I was just wondering..  

WSB: What was the content of his nightmares, do you remember?

Q: No, he didn't tell me, but..

WSB: I see, yes

Q: But I was just wondering, if you had..if you'd spoken to people who have felt (that)...
 your work communicates on an unconscious level...

WSB: Well, no, that's rather, a very, interesting idea, because I've never found any direct 
thing which you'd consider a nightmare. There's always the influence. I can go to a movie 
like Blade Runner and I know that there are scenes in there that will probably appear in my dreams (and it has happened), or books, but, you know, something that, I should say, 
specifically, would produce a nightmare?  (because, while I'm subject to them, I have them periodically, there doesn't seem to be any definite thing that would.. that would trigger it 
off at all). So, well, I'm very suprised to hear that. He felt that there was a direct
connection?

Q: Well, I just…

WSB: …and that when he stopped reading my books the nightmares disappeared?

Q: I don't know about that. I just know my experience was not nightmares, and read(ing) 
about different people that read your books, and then read(ing) Kerouac, and you talking 
about the guy, it just seemed like that was a similar experience, maybe the power of the 
imagery or something communicated on that deep a level.

WSB: Well, I think that anything that makes an impression on you certainly becomes 
material for dreams. No question of that. Since he may have had an effect on millions of
 people I'm sure there are millions of dreams based on On The Road.  Yes?

Q: Do you think the human species will evolve (in a) non-differentiation (direction)?

WSB: Well I don't think that's the crucial point, really, the differentiation. It's to what…
moving from time into space is going to be very difficult to foresee, what the alterations 
would be. I have a few ideas, but..I'm not sure.

Q: When you make this step into space, could you elaborate a little bit on what function 
that dreams are going to serve (then)?

WSB: Well, dreams are simply.. I regard them as preparation for space conditions. Now, 
dreams, actually serve the function of preparation. There's a whole theory of dreams that
the species that does a lot of dreaming inside the womb are.. is.. preparing it for certain 
movements they will have to make later. I think they've done a lot of experiments..(there's a book by, I mean an article by, (Michel) Jouvet on dreaming), and that, it does serve this 
preparatory function. In this case, for future bodily movements, etcetera - and I just 
postulate that it has the same function with us. We know that it has some very powerful 
biologic function..

Q: (Is it) sort of teaching us things that we're going to be doing there?

WSB: That's right. Exactly.

Q: Rather than giving us glimpses of perhaps future worlds and environments?

WSB: Well, there's no difference. You've got a different environment and you're different. 
You have to be different. The different.. it's like the fish looking up there, he's going to get 
up there  - he's got to change. He can't be the same or he will die in the altered condition

Q: So dreams are going to be a source of strength…? 

WSB: No, preparation, preparation. Yes Michael (Brownstein) ?

Q (MB): Where's an artist like Genet.. Can you...

WSB: (By) Genet?

Q (MB): Is that what you just said?

WSB: Oh no no , no no no no no! - Jouvet is a..a scientist. I'm sorry, I don't have.. I used to 
have.. I do have at home a copy of the article, and he turned up the very interesting fact that cold-blooded animals don't dream... that cold-blooded animals do not dream, and this may be due to the fact that their neural tissue is renewable (altho, no one knows really, not any more) - yes?

Q: (In your analogy of land and water, what equals water?)

WSB: Well, you mean what corresponds to water? Well, I would say time.

Q:  (And) What corresponds to land?

WSB: What corresponds to land? Dream. That's as close as we get to it.Not just dream but 
the moments in which you feel that you glimpse something beyond time. This may be a 
poem, a sunset, maybe any number of things, but we're all acquainted with the feeling when you feel for a moment that time is not relevant, and that medium is space. 


Q:  Since you talking about Blade Runner, I wonder if you're familiar with the book upon 
which that was based, and the book's title is Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?  

WSB: Oh yes, oh yes, that's how I got the idea in the first place. I read the book.

Q: So you admire (Philip K) Dick's books?

WSB: It wasn't (Philip) Dick's book at all. It was someone named (Alan) Nourse.

Q: No, I mean the movie, tho'..

WSB:  Oh well, no, I haven't read the book. I haven't read that book. I read the original 
Bladerunner - but I didn't read Dickey's book. [editorial note - Burroughs is possibly 
confusing Philip K Dick and James Dickey here] - I don't like..I'm not very fond of his 
work, frankly (not that I know it very well). 

Q: (When you read of yourself in fiction, is that in some way "you" or is that something that the person… where is the connection? - because I feel there is a connection, but I'm not 
sure….)

WSB: Well, there's no way of  knowing, There's all kinds of variations. So when I .. .Your 
conception, for example..  Jack had his conception of Dean Moriarty (Neal Cassady). And 
his Dean Moriarty was very different from my conception of Neal. Neal and I have ridden..
for five hours in a car and never exchanged a word, and Kerouac has him compulsively
talking. Your conception of someone has got very little to do with the person.


Neal Cassady & Jack Kerouac ..

Q: (But perhaps an actual situation where you're visited in the room by another person…)

WSB: Exactly, yes, but the same thing, in a sense, applies. Sometimes a person may be 
aware of it but sometimes not at all, not at all aware…and then he just…. usually, it's 
difficult to cross-check.

Q: Do you think people will start having  relationships like that more?

WSB: Well, I don't know. I don't think it's an area where practice makes perfect at all. 
I wonder if practice makes perfect at all in those... in that whole area. It's not a matter of 
practice, really, although observation, yes. Well, yes.

Q: You said earlier that you thought that the development of the main character is one of 
the most elusive elements in writing a story. Do you feel that Jack used people like Neal 
Cassady and Gary Snyder as a way of circumventing that problem?

WSB: No, I'm talking about the main character, I'm talking about the "I'. If somebody says "I", everybody assumes that he's talking about.. that he is the "I" represented. There is a 
unique situation in Jack (Kerouac), if you come to think of it. These people that he was 
writing about in some detail were actually (are actually), were actually alive, and, I don't 
know, I think that Neal was rather upset - that he felt that this part was sort of being forced on him, so that is rather.. it's rather unusual for a writer to do that. Usually the characters he writes about are fanciful, or dead, or disguised in some way.

Q:  (Can you describe briefly Neal Cassady…in contrast to how Kerouac describes)?

WSB: No, I was just pointing out that his, his conception of Neal Cassady is very different 
from mine (without going into mine, which isn't particularly interesting). I liked Neal very much but Kerouac just saw an entirely different side to him, that's all. I think this is very 
common, that one person's concept of someone is quite different from anothers (both of 
whom knew the person very well).

Q:  (Do you smoke cigarettes?)

WSB: (Yes) .. Maybe I'll quit again, it's a bad habit. There's no question of it.  Yes.

Q: I just have a two-pronged question. First off, do you think the social and political 
climate that we live in now is an improvement upon the one, say, in the "Forties and 'Fifties and could you, if you do think it's better or worse, (to stop what's happening, take a 
chain-saw…) 

WSB: No, I wouldn't go as far as that. Besides, as I said in.. the other night, I think we are 
living in a much freer America, I know goddam well that we're living in a much freer 
America than say, certainly, than forty years ago, when the four-letter word couldn't appear on a public page, when the rights of minorites were just simply ridiculous, not to be 
considered - "A nigger was a nigger, a Mexican was a Mexican, and a homosexual was a fuckin' queer - and that's it!" (this is back in the 'Twenties and 'Thirties). Now, there's been a great change, since then,  and I think for the better, and we are living in a much freer 
America, and part of this is due to the whole Beat movement, in all its ramifications, its 
connections with jazz, and rock n' roll, and the political activists as well  - that's all, yes?

Q: (Regarding the evolution of time into space…)

WSB: What? what? what? I can't hear you!

Q: (You were saying that people are evolving from the framework of time into space and I 
was asking…)

WSB: Well obviously they're going to change, just as the fish changed when it came out of 
the water, right?, if you have to have lungs. We're not quite sure what we have to have and 
don't have to have, but it, of course, involves biologic alterations. That's the point, not just 
the psychic but biological. Otherwise, you're just going in an aqualung. It's like you take an aquarium with the fish in it and you put it up onto land, that doesn't give them any 
conception of what it means to live on land and all we've done is send some people to the 
moon in an aqualung (useful, I think, very useful, but there's another step to go). Yes?

Q: Some people seem to subscribe to the pendulum idea of society that there was a lot of
liberties to choose in the 'Sixties (and people in the Reagan administration [sic - this was 
1982] think, perhaps, too many). Do you sense that there has been some repression in the 
last few years or are you basically optimistic about the outcome?

WSB: Well, it isn't a question of being optimistic or pessimistic. These are meaningless 
words. I mean, the captain says the ship is sinking, he's a pessimist? As to ultimately, there are a series of impasses that don't look very good for long-time solution. Inflation is 
seemingly going to get worse and worse, all these insoluable problems - over-population
(which is, of course, one of the causes of inflation), over-population, depletion of resources. There certainly is not a good prognosis over a period of time, unless some very drastic changes are made (and no politician could suggest the changes - like cutting their 
population in two) 

Q: You've spoken before of the need to break down the distinctions between art and science and we see this occuring now. What do you think of the results? 

WSB: Well I think that it's very desirable, I'd say that scientists are more artistic and 
artists more scientific, and I think it happens - but there are these… these divisions are 
quite arbitrary. They have no existence outside of arbitrary opinion. Yes?

Q: Do you share (Timothy) Leary and (Abbie) Hoffman's opinion with respect to the 
bomb and the question of nuclear holocaust..

WSB: I.. I would just say I don't know. I wouldn't...I wouldn't express an opinion there. 
You're talking about (a) nuclear holocaust now? - I just don't know. We hope not, that's all.

Q: You have a good understanding of rock and roll music. Obviously you've been an 
influence on a lot of what is happening. I wonder what your involvement was, and if you
listened to it, and if music has anything to do with your (life)? - all these people that, I 
mean, coming out now, they cite you as their influence..

WSB: I really am not knowledgeable about music at all - I should say that immediately - 
 and particularly modern music. I don't.. I don't listen to it as a rule. I like Morroccan 
music, I like some classical music, and sort of old-time jazz, but I'm not ..just not really 
heavily into music  at any point really. 

Q: Kafka had the same thing about music…wouldn't listen to it at all. It disturbed his writing

WSB: Who said so?


WSB: I don't feel that. I don't feel anything, It's just (that) it doesn't interest me terribly 
(altho'…

Q: What do you think of Ishmael Reed's work  (he's a great admirer of your work (even 
though) you're white..

WSB: Well that's a great compliment, I must say. I am.. I'm not as familiar with it as I could be. I...what I've seen I did like, yes. I really can't be very knowledgeable  Yes?

Q: Do you still take drugs…?

WSB: Oh really, my dear. That's not a proper question. Everybody, everybody smokes pot - and I take a drink now and then, and I smoke cigarettes - Basta!

Q: Can you just repeat the name of the author of Science and Sanity

WSB: Alfred Korzybski 

Q: Korzybski 

WSB:  Polish, obviously

Q: Spelt with a K ?

WSB: Yeah - His name was.. he was Count Alfed Korzybski. He was a Count of some sort.

Q:   (Can  I ask you about what else he wrote? I thought you mentioned he wrote a book 
about…)

WSB: Oh no, not at all. He wrote a book called Science and Sanity and he gave some
 lectures once at the University of Chicago, but aside from that, nothing. Yes?

Q: You said about the artist (that he's) telling us about what we know and don't know that we know. What do you think they say about the transition from time to space?

WSB: Well, I think that all artists are talking about space, that art is another link to space, another preparation you might say. 

Well, I think if.. time's almost up, maybe we take one more question.. alright..

Q: You've been described as somewhat of a misogynist and.. do you see any influence on 
you of women writers?



WSB: Oh yes, Carson McCullers, very definitely, Jane Bowles - well, those are the two 
main ones - there are some, oh yes, there are some from,.. wait a minute, I forget her name, the one who kept pigs in Georgia? - Flannery..Flannery O'Connor - very great, I'm afraid 
she's dead  - and Djuna Barnes - Nightwood  She was such a strong and distinctive stylist, I think she influenced every writer to some extent. Yes, decidedly there are influences.



Well, I think that we will close now. 

The previous two segments of William Burroughs at The Jack Kerouac 
Conference at Naropa,  1982 can be accessed here and here